There’s a whole lot of nonsense that gets repeated on the internet, and there’s no exception to this rule, even for the knife community. Many of the “facts” about knives that people wholeheartedly believe are not facts at all, but are really just myths, commonly believed and rarely ever questioned.
While these myths are typically blatantly false, there are good explanations for why many of them exist: whether it’s because historically, they may have been true at one point, or whether it’s because knife companies encourage specific myths to continue by using product branding and advertising.
The knife community would be far better off nipping these myths in the bud, but they’ve been repeated so frequently that more and more people on the forums begin to believe that they’re true.
Here’s 5 popular knife myths that have come up on the forums that really, really don’t want to die.
Spyderco Endura FFG EDC Knife – Amazon
Myth #1: Forged Knives Are Stronger
This myth has been debunked many times over, and yet it keeps coming up. Surprisingly, it’s still quite a frequent flyer, even amongst those in the knife community who really should know better by now. To clear things up yet again, here’s the abridged version of why forged knives are actually not stronger than production knives:
Debunk that Myth! Why It’s Not True:
The core issue with this myth is that, historically, it was actually ground in truth (hah!). In the past, steel in its most raw form had many impurities, and so the process of forging quite literally beat many of them out. This helped produce a more congruent material for a bladesmith to make a knife’s blade out of.
But it’s 2014. These days we have robots on Mars, so I’d hope (and yes it is the case) that we can make pure steels that do not benefit from forging in the slightest.
Another reason this myth has persisted over such a long period of time is due to the industrial process. Because this process has become so damn efficient, stamping out a thousand blades a second has at times come to mean that knives get produced with no regard for performance or grinds. Many cheap knives were created on the production line, and therefore, people started connecting cheapness with production. Knives that were forged, by contrast, were often of higher quality than these crudely stamped cheap knives.
That being said, not every production knife is a cheap knife, and even though the price of a forged knife is much higher than a production knife (think of all that hard labour, and those long hours of manual work going into that knife), oftentimes production knives come out on top, if they are designed well and have great steel that is.
Modern powdered steels like CPM 3V, which is widely renown as a very tough steel, by design cannot be forged. If you limit yourself to only buying knives that are forged, you will be missing out on many of these technological advances, such as CPM S90V or CTS-204P, currently used frequently in the cutlery world for example.
Forged knives will also always have a degree of variance between them. In terms of pure performance, a machine ground blade, made from powdered steel and professionally heat treated, will be consistently superior to the average knife from a custom knife maker who forges his own blades.
Obviously, one can always argue that, in terms of aesthetics, or the “soul” of the blade, forging yields better results. But in terms of strength alone, production knives, if they’re well made, will typically be stronger than forged blades.
Note: I’m in no way saying that forged knives are subpar – many are excellent, but that’s based on the skill of the craftsman – not the act of forging.
Update 01/13/17: If you want to read more about this topic, check out my article Knife Forging: How Forged Knives Are Made & Are They Stronger?
CCK Knives Pigsticker
Myth #2: The More Expensive the Knife, the Better the Quality
You may have noticed that there can be enormous price differences between one knife and the next. Though that price difference is sometimes an indication of higher quality, overall, it’s really not typically the case. Higher price does not often mean better knife quality.
Debunk that Myth! Why It’s Not True:
Knives, like nearly anything else, are worth however much people are willing to pay for them. Prices do not necessarily reflect the quality or performance of the final product. My ZDP-189 Spyderco Delica is so acute that in terms of pure cutting performance it destroys pretty much any of my other knives, regardless of budget. I would wager it would crush the vast majority of custom knives on this front as well.
But it’s not a custom – so it’s not perceived by others to be worth as much as a custom. Hence why it’ll go for cheaper.
In terms of performance, a Helle Viking would be roughly comparable to any odd Mora knife (take the dirt cheap Mora Classic for instance). There’s a huge difference in how they look, but in terms of quality, especially when it comes to using the knife as a survival tool, honestly the Mora Classic is pretty on par, even though there’s over an $80 price difference.
When it comes to fit and finish, whilst it’s generally the case that more expensive knives are better constructed, this again isn’t a hard and fast rule. Also, cost doesn’t seem to be a necessary factor for good fit and finish. One only has to check out the, frankly quite epic, Kershaw Emerson CQC-6K to essentially have their view that “quality comes at a cost” shattered into a million pieces. Unreal levels of quality for an astonishingly low price.
Kershaw Emerson CQC-6K Folding EDC Knife – Amazon
Myth #3: Hardness Has to do with Steel Type
This knife myth is obviously more common amongst those of us who are really into knives. Typically, those who buy knives purely as tools and don’t have vast collections of them (ahem! yes that’s me), rarely look at steel type. That being said, amongst those of us (and I do include myself in that us) who obsess over the materials a knife is made out of, this myth is pretty popular.
Debunk that Myth! Why It’s Not True:
The short of the story is that all steels types have an optimal hardness, but the heat treat is what determines the final resulting hardness of a blade: not the steel type itself.
The long version plays out like this:
The reason this myth exists and continues to be believed by many is ultimately because of branding and the claims made by knife companies.
Knife hardness is usually measured on the Rockwell scale, with the typical knife steel falling anywhere between 54 and 60 Rockwell. Certain steels, like S30V are heat treated to be around 58 Rockwell hardness, while others, like ZDP-189, are heat treated to be around 64 Rockwell hardness.
Companies can opt to heat treat these steels to be harder, but ultimately most do not, due to the risk that increasing hardness also increases chances that the knife blade may snap if happens to be used in an aggressive way (such as if it is used to pry with instead of being used to for its intended purpose: to cut with).
Although a custom knife maker may heat treat one blade at a time and time the process so perfectly so that the end result will be close to optimal, production knives will be heat treated in batches, as this is much more cost efficient. Because a knife company is not going to test every single blade, then heat treat the batch all over again if the knives are not exactly 58 Rockwell, knife companies instead have looser tolerances, specifying a hardness range of 57-59 for S30V (for example).
What that means for consumers is that depending on the company doing the heat treat and the specific batch in question, you might actually have optimal S30V blade, or you might have one that falls short by a few Rockwell points. Hardness doesn’t have as much to do with the steel type as it does that particular heat treat your specific knife went through.
Spyderco Military EDC Folding Knife – Amazon
Myth #4: An ‘X’ Grind Is Always Best
Now when people say this and mean it’s always best for them, that’s one thing. But when people start claiming that “X” grind is always best for anyone, in all situations, something is quite wrong about their statement.
Debunk that Myth! Why It’s Not True:
We are all highly opinionated meat sacks, and as a consequence, we tend to think our way of doing things is the best way of doing things. When it comes to grinds, this issue can very quickly turn into a giant flamefest. Hell, everyone’s got their own preferences, even I prefer specific grinds over others. But I also have to admit that, objectively speaking, all grinds can (and do) excel at specific tasks over other grinds.
Let’s have an example, shall we? I dislike hollow grinds. I’ve always preferred having more meat on my blades, so that just in case I ever want to, I always have the choice of turning my knives into super slicers or tough workhorses.
That being said, a knife with a hollow grind will take a razor edge far easier than any other grind (as a general rule). The primary grind is usually much thinner, and as such, when it comes to putting on the final edge, that edge is much leaner than the edge on a stereotypical scandi grind or convex grind. The thinner edge makes initial cuts easier, due to lack of wedging. Once the edge ends, a hollow grind will tend to form a T-type of wedge, which for me, is frustrating when cutting things like potatoes and thick cardboard.
We all have our biases, but at the end of the day: pick the right knife for the right job! A nice lean full flat ground chef’s knife for slicing vegetables, a thick full convex for chopping wood, or a deep hollow grind for your cut throat razor. They all have their place!
Condor Tool and Knife Bushlore – Amazon
Myth #5: Stainless Steel is All the Same/Are No Good
ARG. This myth is one of my worst gripes. Not at all true, and yet so frequently repeated it drives me mad.
Debunk that Myth! Why It’s Not True:
Stainless steel is not “inferior carbon steel,” contrary to what’s sometimes said around the internet. The vast majority of high edge retention steels are actually stainless: CPM S90V, CPM S110V, and Vanadis 23, for example. On that same note, stainless does not mean brittle or weak. INFI (it’s more or less a stainless steel) is very tough, as is 440B with the right heat treat, and 12C27, which is used by Mora in all their stainless blades, is also very tough.
Judging the performance of a steel based purely on its stain resistant properties is incredibly ignorant. Look at alloy content, the heat treat, and hardness to determine what steel suits your needs. Don’t, for heaven’s sake, judge a knife purely on whether it’s stainless steel or not.
Opinel No. 8 Carbon Pocket Knife – Amazon
Now It’s Your Turn
Heard any claims about knives that you just aren’t sure about?
Know any more myths about knives that irk you whenever you hear them repeated?
Feel free to ask or rant in the comments.
Myth 6: Combat knives/bayonets are supposed to be issued razor sharp.
It peeves me how many people complain that their – fill in the blank – [ka-bar, Glock, Ontario, Garand, M1 Carbine] knife for which oodles (not really) of money on is not sharp.
You don’t use a shashimi sharp knife to dig a hole (Glock), cut through an aluminum aircraft body (Ontario 498), or stick and twist in a person.
I dare say most of those complainers watched a Korean War movie wherein one actor spent the whole movie sharpening his bayonet.
There is one on-line knife retailer who offers to sharpen a factory knife for about $10. I have the equipment and routinely expect to sharpen any new knife/TSA confiscated used knife. Given that I have to sharpen most of the TSA confiscated knives, I think that a lot of people who carry knives and use them in their work don’t have a clue about sharpening.
Most small knife blades can be sharpened with a manual kitchen sharpener for under $20 (no experience necessary). Unfortunately, the thicker blade knives cannot be done in a manual kitchen sharpener or an expensive Worksharp. A belt sander needs to be used. So, if a person doesn’t have one, make a friend of a guy who has one and offer to buy some sanding belts. Don’t ask guys who don’t understand why a military knife or bayonet is issued dull to learn to sharpen with a stone or the excellent Spyderco system. They are already lost and will never spend the time to learn.
So true BDC, so true. Completely agree that sometimes its best to chose your battles and let lost causes go. I have had so many people tell me stainless steel cant hold an edge and the only good knives have to be able to rust.
Spent hours explaining modern CPM steels, the impact of vanadium on edge retention etc. and still no closer to them changing their minds.
I have to say that I agree with all of your facts and logic, but I do have a problem with the way you are presenting it. First off, so that I don’t seem like a trolling forum dweller, I have been a hobbyist bladesmith for about 7 years starting when I was 20. I have also done a decent amount of research in metallurgy in those years. Production blades can definitely be (in my experience) far superior to a forged blade due to modern day steel as you have already said. You have to also consider that most bladesmiths including myself turn something useless into something useful once more. Take a old lawn mower blade or a scrap piece of rebar or even a dull chainsaw blade, they can all produce a very satisfactory and workable knife. Most of us aren’t out to make any money or prove a point, we just like doing it plain and simple. Some smiths do hold on to these myths but only to catch the interest of someone who could enjoy it. There is definitely no magical powers in our hammers or anvil, but there is a degree of pride and art that shouldn’t be lost through simply saying ” that’s pointless, just buy one “. Plus I have yet to find a decent workable pattern welded or folded production blade, but I stand to be corrected. I’m not combating you on this because you are correct but don’t discourage people from giving it a shot because there are some very talented smiths out there.
Howdy Brent, I have no issues with your points- my concern is people misrepresenting metallurgy for their own gain. I personally rather like forged knives but I don’t pretend they can match CPM steel. As for steel patterns, check out some of the pretty stuff from http://www.damasteel.se/ that is used by many production companies including Spyderco. That type of aesthetic isn’t particularly my jam but I understand why people like it.
Likewise, I have nothing but respect for the craft of bladesmithing and why people seek out artisanal blades (which includes me).
Thanks for dropping by mate, much appreciated.
Great article, I’m a custom knife maker by trade. I totally agree with everything in the article and glad it was covered. I do material removal of powdered metallurgy steel and stainless, I forge carbon steel when necessary to acquire a certain shape like a kukri. 5160, 52100, 1095, 1080, 1084 and Damascus “forging steels”. Not only did old timer bladesmiths have to work steel down because they couldn’t order high quality steel from USA Knife Maker they had to use what was available like springs and scrap steel to make a knife, it was usually mild steel. Backyard heat treat methods do not get as good results as using a kiln and cryo treatment. Makers heating their blades in a forge and oil quenching, no matter how many times they normalize will not get top performance out of that type of steel. There’s definitely a new future and advancement for the modern custom knife makers to make high quality knives with any type of steel.
Have you considered taking some classes on bladesmithing? You might consider it if you have not yet, before writing about the topic. Your knowledge of metallurgy is lacking and is evident to those of us who bladesmith for a living. To be specific, its misleading to say that the steel type doesn’t detemine how hard the blade is. I understand your end point, but the steel type has a direct effect on the final hardness of a blade. The temperature at which the steel is hardened and then tempered determines whether the steel type will reach its full potential. I would recommend becoming involved with the bladesmithing community if you are going to write about it–your insight will increase exponentially.
That being said I appreciate your article on ceramic knives.
“The short of the story is that all steels types have an optimal hardness, but the heat treat is what determines the final resulting hardness of a blade: not the steel type itself.”
Maybe read the article before commenting? Literally the first paragraph.
As a Journeyman Machinist I would say that you are right about purity of metals in modern steel, except for one important detail. Forging imparts directional strength to the material, and proper heat treating will give you temper and hardness. A stock removal knife is not “stronger” than a forged knife. but the heat treat can be superior because of the uniformity of composition. When i want a pry bar it has to be forged into shape or it will bend no matter how it is heat treated.The same with an axe or hammer. Non forged tools that are just cast or ground into shape, are weaker than their forged counterparts
In the auto industry they still forge axles for vehicles so they can be smaller in diameter and not twist under torsion. I can tell you from foundry experience that chisels that are ground but not forged are terrible. We used to have a blacksmith on-site just for sharpening chisels used to clean castings.
I am talking about knives only- directional strength (“grain”) is imparted when they manufacture the steel stock/sheet etc. A stock removal knife already has this benefit.
I can think of only a few knives that are cast, ground and heat treated and thats for reasons other than saving money (dentritic structure).
edit: for further information; http://www.cashenblades.com/images/articles/lowdown.html
I’m no Journeyman Machinist. However, I spent many years studying alloy’s and forging and creating tools using the grinding or stock removal process.
I 100% agree with forging gives directional strength, especial high QTY layering of the materials being forged. However, I would not to go as far to say every forged knife is stronger then every knife made by stock removal. i.e. Grinding material into a shape.
I will agree yes in general 1 vs 1 Forged will be stronger because of directional toughness.
Now for my big WTF point.
Knifes are not a working tool, such as hammers, pry-bars, saw’s, chisels ECT, ECT.
A knife is a tool, however it only has one job and that is to cut (slice) as smoothly & efficiently with the minimal amount of force possible. Therefore, knives are not a tool that requires that height about of toughness as a pry-bay or automotive axle would need. Using a knife any metal on metal or prying or levering is completely abusing the knife. Therefore, using a knife for these task can & will result in the blade breaking, chipping or bending.
Now that we know the task and\or job of the knife is designed for, we can claim without any reservations, that forged knives are not stronger then knives made with any-other manufacturing process. Especially with our modern High quality knife alloy’s. Yes, in a damage test a forged stock removal knife might give at X ft. pounds while a knife of equal blade dimensions & made with a different process might give at a lesser ft.Lbs #, not to say it will every time. Let say in this test it did break with 10 ft. pound less of force. I can guaranty you it is still many, many pound over the forced needed to use the knife for the job it is designed to be used or even in a dropping slipping accident. I quality knife will never break or bend while in use, when your using the right tool for the job.
Examples:
One would not use a higher Rockwell knife for butchery or as a boning knife, Such as a chef’s knife. A boning knife is made to bend giving when force is applied in a cross direction to maintain contact with the bone. Now you would not use that boning knife to cut thru a bone during this process. You would change to a bone saw.
A wood carving knife is normally designed to a harder rock-well then skinning knives. Carving wood takes a blade that has a very sharp edge while also retaining that edge in long periods of use. It will not bend or give when larger forces are applied in-order to force blade thru the wood. My point is use the right tool for the job. then how many ft. pound it takes to snap or bend a blade really doesn’t matter. Right?
Regarding Forging, it’s my understanding that forging results in a finer grain structure independent of impurities. For example, a very clean steel like hitachi white steel would benefit from a finer grain structure. Why or why not is this true? When you talk about forging, is it possible to separate the heat treat? Meaning, if forging is heating the steel up and then hammering it, can you separate the two when discussing the pros and cons? You can heat the billet to a lower temperature for forging which is better right? Don’t you want to heat the steel no higher than needed? In addition, how you quench and what temperature you anneal the blade at, hurt or benefit the end result correct? All of these steps would mean if you had a skilled bladesmith, the hand made knife would be better than a production knife, correct?
Howdy Phillip- the short answer is no- there has never been any substantiated evidence that the act of forging a knife increases performance to the point of anything noticeable.
However, this is way above my pay grade (so to speak) and I don’t want to give out misinformation due to my inability to delve into the technical aspects- kevin@cashenblades.com is in my opinion the authority on the matter and I would reach out to him for an indepth explanation. Or Cliff Stamp
I heard an interesting comment a few days ago from a man who is a small manufacturer of a knife sharpening system while being interviewed by another man who has a YouTube Back to Basics type video site. This guy asked what the mfgr. thought of diamond type sharpening stones and his reply was interesting to me. He said that he only uses diamond stones for two things, sharpening ceramic knives and flattening whetstones. When asked why, he answered that he would never use a diamond sharpener on any kind of steel for one reason, there isn’t any steel made by mortal man which is harder than diamonds. Thus, if you try to drag a piece of steel, ie., knife blade, axe blade, etc., across a diamond sharpener, you will ruin that sharpener forever. This sounded too fantastic to be true but he explained further and I could see his rationale in the matter. He said that, as you pull the edge of a chisel or knife across a diamond impregnated plate such as a DMT Dia-Sharp, of which I happen to own 2 diamond plates, the diamonds will drag on the steel and have a tendency to “stick” in the softer steel. He said that the industrial diamond chips are bonded to the steel place with some kind of epoxy or other bonding agent and, there can be so much stress placed on those diamond chips through the pressure applied to the blade being sharpened, that the diamond chips will literally fracture themselves or break the bond of the adhesive holding them to the plate steel and the grit will be gone in no time on that diamond plate!
Now, I have experienced exactly this same kind of reaction to sharpening blades that were abused or otherwise in poor shape and I had that exact same thing happen to both of my Dia-Sharp plates! Those DMT plates are not cheap! And I assumed that they were simply a rip off to sell a product which was faulty or sub-standard with the onus on the buyer to beware of what they are buying. Now I am not so sure. You could almost FEEL the grit get finer and finer as you continued to sharpen your blades. I had a set of German wood chisels that had to be at least a hundred years old, fine workmanship, fit, and finish but very much abused by the owner through the years. I gave a pittance at an estate auction for the full set and was setting out to establish a new cutting edge on each of them when I noticed that my diamond plates, used to grind down the knicks and corner chips on the chisels weren’t doing the job that roughly a 120 grit (equivalent) abrasive should have done in a short time.
What do you think of this theory Tom?? I see the common sense in what he said to a point, I don’t know if the diamonds are actually getting “stuck” in the steel or breaking the adhesion of the bonding agent or what, but I do know that I still use them to flatten my Japanese waterstones when needed and they work fine to that purpose if a bit slower than they would had they not been “steeled” to near death!!
Well, I can only speak from my own experiences. I have a DMT set up that I have used for the past 8 years and its still going strong- will steel particles get stuck to the DMT plate? Sure, but the same thing can be said about aluminium oxide sharpening stones- the key is to clean them out using warm water, detergent and some light rubbing.
If you use your DMT sharpener properly (light touch) the steel blade will not damage it- yes the abrasive will feel smoother overtime but it will still cut quite nicely.
At least thats what I experienced. With that said, these days I prefer using Japanese waterstones as I find the experience more relaxing.
sorry if this is off topic, but i’ve been scouring the web for one of those pig sticker butcher knives (love at first sight when i saw your article) and i can’t find any! are they even MADE anymore?
CCK makes them and as far as I know, they are still available (I don’t know which store though- maybe Chefs knives to go?). Sorry about the super late response- didn’t see your comment!
Another factor re: SS in current times is where it is made. It didn’t use to be that way, obviously some countries were famed for great stainless, as they still are, but that’s not my point. I see SS coming out of China, nowadays, that barely can be called stainless.
It’s like decaf, only being 97% decaffeinated, Chinese SS has a tendency to be 97% stainless, but not uniformly, the non-stainless 3% is in random areas around the piece!
One of the best materials materials I have found to get a mind blowing edge on is 1/8″ sheet Wilsonart. A material similar to Corian, (think commercial countertops), but made by a competitor, it is the only material I’ve found to make a GOOD knife for cutting foam upholstery materials. They obviously are a single use, specialty tool, but they cost next to nothing to make, are easy & quick to make with a belt sander. Hell, I usually never even bother to put a ‘finish’ edge on them with 400 or 600 grit. They are so dang sharp with 220, they are dangerous enough, as is.
I make them for my friends, just to mess with their heads; I make SURE to tell them not to ‘test’ the edge with a finger. I did the first time I made one, and I have never cut myself that FAST before, right through a nitrile coated nylon mesh work glove, and I buy & use disposible scapels in both my shop and at my ‘inside’ work bench in my office.
You can’t just buy either Wilsonart or Corian without being a factory trained installer, but if you find an installer, or a warehouse that sells it, you can usually get plenty of scraps, damaged inventory or remnants for nothing or near nothing, (just tell them why you want it, and DON’T try to buy glue for it).
I picked up a near lifetime supply after a Wilsonart training session and workshop at a local warehouse distributor 10-15 yrs ago. They were just going to dumpster the stuff.
But, given their special use, and inherent weakness, if it all WTHIAHB, you could do some serious butchering with one, if need be, even if you have to shape it on a cinder block and ‘set the edge’ with a brick! LOL…
Later..
Excellent tips Geo, I have found corian on eBay amongst other vendors and may give your technique a shot. Maybe even scribble out an article with my findings! I agree 100% about the quality control issues coming out of China with regards to stainless. Its a damn shame but its what happens when price point matters more than performance.
Western (or Japanese brands) that make knives in China tend not to have those issues, KAI & Spyderco stainless steel has been predictably dependable, atleast in my experience.
Thanks for dropping by!
I was referring to ‘average’ SS. It used to be you could buy a SS kitchen utensil no matter where it was made and know it wouldn’t rust or pit. Not so anymore. You have to look for utensils out of Japan or Europe, (that are actually made there), cause Lord knows, there’s nothing made in the US, anymore.
AFAIK, Corian does not come in a thin sheet. It’s been quite a while since I was active in construction, so they may make a thin sheet type now. As I remember, that was the big difference between Corian and Wilsonart. Corian was much more expensive, because it was about 0.50” thick and Wilsonart was cheaper, came in 0.125” thickness and with good technique, you couldn’t tell the two apart when finished.
It you have a good bandsaw or perhaps if you are REAL good with a table saw, you might be able to slice off a piece of Corian thin enough to make a blade out of it, but then I don’t about the comparable hardnesses. Trying with Corian would be an experiment.
If you decide to do it, let me know. If you catch me at a good time, perhaps we could make some knives of the same design, you with Corian & me with Wilsonart. If we each made a pair, we could trade one and each test & evaluate them.
The funny thing is, I’ve since found an even better knife for upholstery foam: a ceramic knife! LOL
I was intending on adding a correction to my post about my ceramic knife experience as I recently discovered I was mistaken where I had purchased the two small ceramic knives I have been abusing for a number of years. I actually bought them at Harbor Freight.
I recently bought some good diamond stones, (same brand you have demo’d), and after getter familiar with them, I wanted to look at the HF diamond stones, just out of curiosity to see what they were all about. It just so happens the ceramic knives are right beside them, and I did a bit of a double take when I recognize the poor little knives I’ve been treating so bad.
The price had dropped almost 50% on the two bigger sizes, and a bit on the small one, so I bought another small one & a mid-sized one, (5” blade), for our apt in NY, (where I was when I made the discovery).
A couple days later, I needed to cut some foam & didn’t have one of my foam knives in NY, (since I’m not supposed to be doin stuff like that while I’m here – famous last words), so I went looking for a bread knife.
My wife moved to NY for a job about five years ago while we were in the midst of a lawsuit with a criminal mortgage company, and we were running out of money. The NY job paid so much more, we didn’t really have a choice, so now I spend three months on Long Island & three in Oregon, then repeat.
So, my wife ‘put together’ the apartment and must have decided she didn’t need a bread knife since there wasn’t one. The only surrated knife in the place was a steak knife, and that wouldn’t do the job. I ended up grabbing the new 5” mid sized ceramic knife I had just bought at HF. I bought the two knives because I HAVE been so impressed with the two I abuse in Oregon and partly to ease my conscience about what I have done to the others in the name of product testing!
I promised these two I would treat them much, much better than their brethren, and then what do I do? First thing I cut with the mid size knife is 6” foam & 3” memory foam. But, OH what a job it did! I have NEVER cut foam of any type as easily, square & straight, with a smooth cut line, as I did with the ceramic blade.
When I get back to the land of no sales tax, (Oregon), the first 20% discount coupon I get my hands on is going towards the full size ceramic knife at HF. It WILL become my foam knife.
We don’t have Harbour Freight here (as far as I know), sounds like you get your monies worth out of them though. I have never had to cut foam before- are stanley blades/box cutters not viable?
For very thin foam, perhaps. If you are cutting anything 2″/5 cm pr thicker and need a precise & square cut for, say, upholstery, cutting foam can be a real challenge.
The blade needs to be large and very, very sharp. In the upholstery world, they typically use a hot knife, which is actually an electrically heated piece of wire strung taut between to fingers/arms of a cutting tool.
They work, but as you can imagine, stink to the high heavens & are always there to inflict a burn.
That’s why I was so pumped when I first made a knife out of the Wilsonart. While I was doing the first project that spawned the Wilsonart knife, I found myself short of some materials. I called a local upholstery shop near my house to see if I could buy some cushion ‘silk’. It’s what you put around the faom before you put it in slip covers. It makes it much easier to get the foam into a close fitting cloth bag.
I took a spare Wilsonart knife along, as a thank you for selling me some materials, (normally shops that perform a trade aren’t set up to sell materials, and don’t usually like to).
The owner turned out to be an Asian woman with a moderate grasp of English. When I told her I had a gift of thanks for her, she didn’t really understand. I went on to say I was an inventor, and this was something I came up with accidentally, and if she would try it, I’d like to hear any feedback she had.
About then, her asst started to pay attention. I asked him where their foam cutter was and if they had a scrap of 3-4″ foam I could cut up.
We got to the cutting table & he handed me the foam. I proceeded to slice off 0.5″/1cm slices from a 4″ thick piece of foam, something that is near impossible. When I turned to them, their mouths were hanging open.
I just laughed and said, ‘that was my response the first time I tried it. So, you could use this, huh?’
I then showed them how to sharpen it, and left.
I haven’t had a chance to get back by there and see how they are doing with it. I need to get that on my agenda when I get back to Oregon.
So, when I discovered the ceramic knives cut the foam even better, well, you an imagine my shock.
I haven’t heard that stainless steel is inferior in terms of strength to carbon steel with shorter blades, but I have heard that stainless is more likely to break than high carbon steel when used to make long bladed weapons such as swords: any truth to this?
Carbon steel is tougher as a baseline average than stainless steel. Carbon tool steels like S7 tool steel are almost absurd in terms of tensile strength.
The issue is not one of strength because strength can mean many things- what is a better metric is tensile strength and specifically how much torsion it can take before either bending or snapping and in terms of long bladed weapons a carbon blade will be much better.
With that said, if you don’t care about cutting performance you can always use a high chromium/low carbon stainless steel like 316L and make a sword out of it. It won’t cut worth a damn but it will never snap or shatter (just bend).
Thomas, excellent article and I agree completely. A few things to mention here. As you indicated carbon steels will typically be tougher than stainless steels, but usually at the expense of corrosion and wear resistance. Stainless steels must have 12.5-13% Chromium to be considered stainless. Most real stainless steels have more than 15% Cr. Adding chromium to a carbon steel makes it tougher to a point. For example, A2 has 5% chrome and is very tough. A8m, INFI and CPM 3V all have around 8% chrome and are tougher than A2. Beyond 8-9% chrome reduces toughness but increases corrosion resistance. Two of my favorite all time stainless steels are ATS34 and 440C. They offer good toughness along with good edge holding and excellent corrosion resistance. There is no perfect steel for everything so people have to decide what their priorities are and choose the steel accordingly. . Spyderco is a company that excels in trying new steels and has near perfect fit and finish.
Howdy Roy! Thanks for dropping by. Completely agree about Spyderco having the guts to experiment and bring a product to market that is near the top in terms of fit and finish (I would argue that Rockstead has better tolerances).
As far as a perfect steel goes, I love Hitachi Super Blue and AEB-L. Both different but very clean steels with excellent edge holding capabilities and decent toughness.
Spyderco super blue is awesome. AEB-L looks really good, similar to one of the Sandvik steels which are all pretty great.
Side note: INFI is corrosion resistant for what it is but is NOT a stainless steel. IIRC it is a modified 52100.
Regarding Myth #3, actually there are two important factors involved in determining the hardness of blade steel and one of them is the type of steel. Potential hardness of the material is determined by the chemistry of the steel. There is a balance between the amount of carbon and the carbide forming elements. The proper heat treatment of the material will determine how close to the potential hardness you can come. Steel with a formula designed to operate at a lower hardness will achieve 54-58 HRC with 1.9% Carbon. Steel like with 2.3% Carbon and can achieve 56-60 HRC. High-speed steels with different formulas can achieve a hardness of 66-68 HRC. So the answer is you need both the right chemistry and the right heat treatment to achieve your desired hardness.
Howdy Michael, I already mentioned that steels have their own optimal hardness- my point is that the heat treat is what defines the final HRC of a given blade- not only the inherent alloy blend of the steel in question.
As mentioned, “The short of the story is that all steels types have an optimal hardness, but the heat treat is what determines the final resulting hardness of a blade: not the steel type itself.”
Thanks for stopping by!
Well pointed out Michael. To say “heat treat determines the final hardness of a blade: not the steel type itself” (sic) is as erroneous as saying it’s the steel type and not the heat treatment. If EITHER the steel type OR the heat treatment is altered then the hardness of the blade will differ. The two components cannot be separated in this equation.
Howdy Matt!
As I responded to Michael,
” I already mentioned that steels have their own optimal hardness- my point is that the heat treat is what defines the final HRC of a given blade- not only the inherent alloy blend of the steel in question.”
Obviously picking a knife solely on Rockwell hardness is silly, the composition of the steel impacts performance with regards to how one would crank out optimal hardness when heat treating but unfortunately many people have been mislead into thinking that the steel (and the steel only) is what the defining aspect of the viability of a knife for x given task.
A poorly heat treated CPM 3V blade will not be as tough as a well heat treated VG-10 Blade and that was my point. The steel and final heat treat have to work in unison for optimal performance and that was never put into question in this article.
I’ll give you that production plate blades are *usually* better than what *sometimes* happens while hot forging a blade but you miss something important –The quality blade steel flat stock that “metal removal” knife makers buy IS forged — you just don’t do it yourself. And it isn’t done with hammers. However, as the billet hits the first rollers in the hot rolling mill, the sound might seem like hammers. Then the quality stuff usually goes through cold rollers which is “cold forging”. The only thing that they aren’t getting is any slag removal so even in the best plate or strip steels, every once in a blue moon, you’re going to find an inclusion. Of course, none of this applies to the CPM stuff or their ilk but you noted that.
Aye, it seems that many people just don’t seem to understand that a blacksmith’s hammer doesn’t impart magical properties onto the steel. Its one of the most persistent myths I have encountered. Machined consistency > Manly man hitting things! Thanks for the comment!
hah yeah. the only difference between forged and stock reduction is how much steel you start with and how much steel you end up with.
Could you comment on Murray Carters thoughts that say the opposite?
“The closer we can forge a blade to its final dimensions, the easier and faster it is to complete.
Besides the time saving advantages of forging a blade, there is also an added benefit of strengthening it. Each piece of steel has what we call “grain.” The grain in steel is similar to growth rings in a tree. Even if we forge steel thinner than its original stock thickness, by packing and condensing the grain, we preserve a lot of it’s inherent strength. If we were to simply grind away steel from the original piece of stock, the blade would only be as strong as the grain that remained in the blade.”
Excerpt From: Carter, Murray. “Bladesmithing with Murray Carter.”
Could you comment on why Murray Carter is right or wrong about the following statement he makes?
“The closer we can forge a blade to its final dimensions, the easier and faster it is to complete.
Besides the time saving advantages of forging a blade, there is also an added benefit of strengthening it. Each piece of steel has what we call “grain.” The grain in steel is similar to growth rings in a tree. Even if we forge steel thinner than its original stock thickness, by packing and condensing the grain, we preserve a lot of it’s inherent strength. If we were to simply grind away steel from the original piece of stock, the blade would only be as strong as the grain that remained in the blade.”
Excerpt From: Carter, Murray. “Bladesmithing with Murray Carter.”
Awesome article, it’s great to see the persisting myths debunked. Bushcraft is rife with them!
Can you give me some examples of Bushcraft myths? Now I am curious!
Good article, I have know this for years & tried to educate people about in online forums for years.
I avoid most forums for a reason, logic just goes out the window and people obsess and nitpick for the sake of argument instead of calmly discussing things. Maybe we should start our own forum!
Well said. Many prefer to be “right” rather than informed…
You and me both. I made the recent mistake of joining a very well-known forum to instantly regret it within a couple of posts. Talk about a pool of circling sharks. If you make a forum, shoot me a msg and I’ll be the first (or second) to join!
Great article by the way. Being ex-military I not-surprisingly drift towards stainless blades. I have had absolutely amazing hard-use field results with M390 and N690Co. For what I typically put a field knife through, both these steels rank up amoung the best (if not the best) in my opinion.
I think you could expand with a knife myths part 2. One only needs a week on most knife forums to come away with a list of debatable beliefs on knives (best handle material, blade geometry, point type, spine styles, sheath carry configs, etc).
Aye, forums can often be pretty toxic places. Our own forum (survivalthreads.com) bans politics and religion to avoid this kind of nonsense, I reckon we are a pretty level headed lot (and would be super happy to have you on board)!
Liner locks are inferior to any other lock ever made. You need system sharpeners to get a decent edge, you can’t do it by hand. Anything you would use a knife for I can do just as good with a pair of scissors(AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!). (Insert Generic Knife Brand Name Here) is the best company around making the best knives for everything and everyone. Serrations are the best for cutting rope(this one’s like nails on a chalkboard for me). In every situation, a fixed blade is better than a folder.
Agreed, I love a well implemented liner lock- specially if its nested! System sharpeners are great but by no means a necessity and scissors are blasphemous on a knife/survival blog.
More fodder for the guys who cant afford custom knives to jack their jaw about.
Plenty of production knives cost more than customs knives so I am not sure where being able to “afford” them comes into play, that being said I own and have owned many custom knives, many of which are manufactured exactly the same way a high end production knife would be. An example would be a Grismo Norseman vs a ZT 301. Different pricepoint and branding but both use stock removal method (abrasive vs cnc but both automated) with standard off the shelf steel & are CNC Machined.
Custom really means very little these days in terms of performance. When talking about branding or styling then that’s a whole other story and I won’t get into that because taste is very subjective.
Are we talkin custom or customized?
Custom!
Kershaw just tweeted you.
Wow! Thanks for letting us know!