After over a decade of being heavily involved in the knife world, not only as a knife user, but as a collector as well, I have found myself completely jaded by the knife industry’s enduring tactic of releasing new steels and declaring them clear upgrades. I am not arguing that there isn’t an actual improvement from steel to steel, but rather that this has been overplayed for the sake of marketing and generating more sales.
Spyderco Military EDC Knife – Amazon
When S30V first became mainstream as a high-end cutlery steel, the propaganda machine went full blast and touted it as the end all be all of steels. This prompted its ubiquitous adoption. Is S30V a good steel? Yes. Is it significantly better than S60V, which was its predecessor in the Spyderco Military, for example? No.
I own an ungodly amount of knives, the vast majority of them from high performance companies like Spyderco. The steels used in my knives run the gamut from the “lowly” 8Cr13MoV all the way down to CPM S110V. I’m not saying I’m an expert on metallurgy, but I think I have enough experience with knives to be able to make a somewhat educated post on the value (perceived or otherwise) of super steels.
Spyderco Dragonfly 2 EDC Knife – Amazon
For the sake of not writing a novel, I will define a super steel by its edge retention as the measuring rod. Plenty of other metrics can be introduced to rank steels, such as tensile strength or corrosion resistance, for instance. Yet for the sake of having a linear upgrade path, I think edge retention is the best method. The reality is that to achieve other characteristics you will always have to sacrifice something. If a steel had amazing toughness, edge retention, and corrosion resistance: manufacturers would be using it for pretty much every knife on the market. A knife is defined by its primary function as a cutting tool. This is important because a steel with high tensile strength does not necessarily make a good knife. A good example would be the 300 series of stainless steel – good luck breaking them, but edge retention will be almost non-existent, hence, not good knives. Tough steels like 5160 are middle-of-the-road in many tests as a consequence of being utilized for a cutting tool whilst emphasizing toughness (you can’t have your cake and eat it), and as such, do not qualify as super steels.
Rare Super Steels
- Vanax 75
- REX 121
- CPM – S110V
Common Super Steels
- CPM – S90V
- CPM – M4
- CTS – 20CP
- CTS – 204P
- M390
Above-Average Premium Steels
- ZDP 189
- CTS – XHP
- Hitachi Super Blue
Average Premium Steels
- CPM – S30V
- VG-1
- D2
- Elmax
- N690
- 154CM
- ATS – 34
Average Steels
- 420HC
- 8Cr13MoV
- 13C26N
- 440C
- 14C28N
Whilst this list is nowhere near exhaustive, it really does bring home how much variety there is in the world of high end cutlery. I arbitrarily (and unscientifically) scribbled down this list based on my own experiences and biases, and while it would be easy to juggle those steels around all day long using various pre-requisites to define a steel as “better” than others, the reality is that, while I personally love super steels from purely a nerdy perspective, in real world use the performance gain is not that noticeable, especially between premium steels and common super steels.
A friend of mine works in drywall and his EDC of choice is a Kershaw Volt SS with 8Cr13MoV. It’s been beaten to pieces, but functionally it works. For a supposedly “mediocre” steel, I gotta say, it holds up damn well. Objectively speaking, I will always pick a super steel over a “regular” steel if I have the choice, and that’s, again, purely because I am a giant nerd: it’s not because having a super steel is a functional necessity. The problem is that people mistake this fascination most of us seem to have with super steels as meaning super steels are objectively better than other steels when it comes down to improvement of knife function, and that isn’t actually true. Remember when people freaked out about CPM S35VN? Based on just a few negative opinion user reports, the entire community seemed to rip the steel to pieces, proclaiming to have “noticed” sub par performance.
Kershaw Volt Stainless Steel Folding Knife – Amazon
Listen, if you want to know for sure whether super steels are worth it: get off the internet forums and start using your damn knives! In regular use, I can’t actually tell the difference between S30V and S35VN, and I doubt you can either! Unless I am doing a regulated cut test, using consistently uniform abrasive materials and a lot of whisky to get me through such a boring test, I’m just not going to notice a difference.
The reality is that the “super” part is pretty much all in our heads. It’s like when people have a serious problem with the Kershaw Emerson CQC-6K purely because it’s made in China with an average blade steel. I can’t get over how biased this is, especially considering it’s pretty much the best knife you can buy for under $200, and it costs like $30. Can you actually tell the difference between a super steel and 8cr13MoV in everyday use? No (and be honest here – I know you can’t). So my question for you is, then why do you care?
Kershaw Emerson CQC-6K Folding Knife – Amazon
There is nothing wrong with always seeking the best, but when the knife industry takes note of our obsession with super steel and begins capitalizing on the nonsense by releasing folders with Cruwear blades (why?!) and small EDC fixed blades with CPM 3V steel, you’ve got to admit we all have a problem. These kinds of knives are absurd, and quite frankly go against all sense of logic and reason. But they’re on the market! And it’s all because the lot of us are super steel addicts.
At the end of the day, advertising exists because it works. Try to resist the endless deluge of the latest generation steels that can cut atoms and pry open tanks, and instead focus on knives with consistent heat treating, good edge geometry, and a steel that suits its intended application. That means going for a tough steel like CPM 3V for a chopper, an edge retention focused steel like CPM S30V for your folders, and a super stainless steel like H1 or X15TN for your marine-use blades.
Spyderco Delica 4 EDC Folding Knife – Amazon
To reiterate, I am not saying that supersteels don’t have their place. What I’m saying is, no matter the steel, if the knife is badly made, it will still be bad. The crux of the matter is that, while I’d always choose a super steel over an average blade steel, I’m not turning down a knife just because it’s not offered with a super steel blade steel. And if you would turn down a great knife simply because it’s blade isn’t a super steel – well I really think you need to reassess your priorities when it comes to knives.
If you insist on having the toughest EDC knife possible, I can make you a 5/8 inch thick, 302 stainless steel, full convex 5 inch fixed blade for a mere $700. Edge retention is good enough to open at least 1 parcel guaranteed. Email to order.
You are right about heat treat and edge geometry first before super steels average people can’t sharpen and most people don’t know edge geometry just sharpen any way till sharp and won’t hold edge.modern people love super steels,fancy knives and barely go out of city and experience using them,my buck s30v beat four times higher price Chris reeves s30v sebenza cutting as my edc knife,bucks heat treat and geometry better that’s why it did better,to me fancy to much don’t count for performance
Edge geometry will beat all for performance, at least initially. People who rock 1/4″ stock “slicers” and expect better performance than an Opinel just because its a super steel are straight up delusional.
Thanks, Thomas! Great blog. Hey, another thought regarding super knife steels. Do you share my skepticism of internet knife “edge holding” tests? You know, the YouTube videos where knife A cuts 150 lineal feet of cardboard and knife B only cuts 100 feet? Or rope cut tests where knife A cuts 120 pieces of rope while knife B cuts only 100?
These tests do have their place – assuming equal blade profile and sharpening angle (a dubious proposition in some cases?) these test will tell you that knife A is harder and holds an edge better than knife B. But we should not be surprised that 12c27 or SAK steel or 1075 carbon does not hold an edge as long as some “super steel”.
These tests tell us little about real world knife performance. When was the last time you cut up a cardboard box on a camping trip – let alone 100 feet of cardboard? Or cut 100 bits of rope? On a week trip, you might cut 10 ropes (maybe none) and all are likely 1/4 inch or less (twine, para cord).
Also, ease of resharpening counts for something. If a super steel finally does get dull 100 miles from the nearest road, what are you going to do? Mail the knife back to the manufacturer and wait six weeks? I don’t think so!
You can sharpen an ordinary steel on a flat rock from the river bed if necessary.
Moreover, people got by with carbon steels for hundreds of years before stainless was invented. The supposed difficulties in maintaining carbon is vastly exaggerated.
Howdy Kevin, thanks for dropping by and the compliments- as for the edge holding rankings- I don’t care much for them to be frank. On a practical level, I will always re-sharpen my blades long before they go dull. People who use knives every day (butchers, fisherman etc.) frequently use 420 stainless steel knives for a reason. Maintenance free and trivial to resharpen.
Exactly – my experience with Buck 420HC is that it is easy to resharpen (without extraordinary tools) and holds a edge pretty well – much better than SAK steel – all while being tough and highly rust resistant. Not bad, and reasonably priced. I do have some older Buck knives in 440C and it is arguably a better steel – but it is difficult to sharpen in the field and is somewhat prone to chipping and breakage. Witness the numerous Buck 110’s with snapped off tips. Ok, the old saying “use a knife for a screwdriver and you get a screwdriver” applied. But many stories out there about tips breaking in ordinary usage.
I have always been in the camp that tools are tools and I treat them as such. The issue with the obsession with super steels is that we have lost sight of the big picture. Tools have termed into pure collectables and the buying public doesn’t seem inclined to question the wisdom of CPM 3V in a folding knife etc. A sad state of affairs.
Being retired early (from National Park Service law enforcement) and necessarily cheap (ie: not a lot of money), I spent about 8 years traveling in many third world countries in some very remote places. I always carry a couple decent folding knives (I’ve also had a few stolen and/or lost), but found that steel such as M390 is virtually impossible to get sharpened locally there, and I’m not willing to carry a sharpener.
In considering new knives, I’ve gone from using super steels to buying a quality folder that can be easily sharpened. Are rating guides, such as Knife Informer’s Guide to the Best Knife Steels, generally accurate in regards to ease of sharpening, or does individual company’s heat treatment cause large variations in this? I seek to buy the best steel quality knife that can be sharpened locally on normal stones. Sometimes guys there who sharpen use a human powered stone wheel; others just use flat cutting stones. I don’t care if the blade gets scratched up, or even if it gets a bit rusty, so long as they can get it sharp, but I also want a decent edge as long as possible.
I’ll be leaving in a few months for more travel in southeast Asia, and any brand and steel suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I see no reason to spend more than around $110 for a good folder of about 3 inches.
Thank You
Mark
Spyderco delica vg10 blade, good edc knife for you,but on any folder look for to much blade play locked open and make sure all screws are lock tired with blue properly
I too agree with this article. I own knives ranging from 1095, and Case Tru-Sharp right on through varied Benchmades with up to M390. I also have a Pyderco Para2 in S30V. My all time favored is my good old pocket slip-joint folder in 1095–tried, and true. All of these so called high-tech super steels–I mean give me a break its a knife for Gods sake. I like S30V, but find steels like the M390–I don’t even need a knife like that. I use a knife for cutting boxes, bags, nylon sheathing, rubber hose, and things a normal knife will cut, and should cut. I am not using a lock blade, fixed blade to take down trees, cut cement blocks, or attempt to split granite boulders–for Gods sakes–again its a knife–not an axe, folding jack hammer, chisel. Its a darn knife. Knives have a pretty simple task–to cut–to cut things that should be cut within reason.
For me edge retention has always been good with basic blade steels. I like, and desire a knife that can be sharpened with normal sharpening stones, and tools. When we get into these so called super steels–I find it isn’t fun to sharpen them. Then I have to use diamond hones, and tools that normal people really don’t want to have to spend the time, and money for. S30V takes enough time if it gets really dull. M390 for me really requires time to do things by hand using diamond hones. Give me a basic steel that requires basic tools to sharpen to be used for basic tasks knives were mean’t for. Yes–I own knives in varied higher end steels, but I really do not care for them at all compared to my basic steels. About the only knife that I really care for in these steels is my Spyderco Para2 in S30V. I carry it often. Its more of a pocket queen–carry it just because I can. When the work begins–basic cutting, and knife use–I’ll use my knives in 1095, and D2 any day over all the hyped up high tech stuff. I’ll get flamed for this, but I’m gonna say it–Many knives, and their materials, are over hyped, over built, and over priced–no thanks.
Aye, I used to be a giant super steel fiend but these days I seem to have regressed back to the old classics (10XX series basic carbon steels). If it works, it works.
I’m perfectly happy with a 1095 blade at 57-59 HRC. If it’s good enough for the U.S. military it’s good enough for me!
AUS-8 and 440C are great too. Underrated in my opinion. I think knife snobs just get mad when they see someone perfectly happy with their $50 blade and they know they blew 10x as much on theirs. :)
Yep! Nothing but love for my 1095 blades. I have a Tops litetrekker and its incredible.
Why did you put Elmax in that category and not in the same one as m390? In my experience they’re so similar. Elmax puts the steels in your category to shame edge retention wise. I just wondered what your experiences were that led you to this.
I go by CATCA reports and Ankersons standardized testing. Personally, anything beyond CTS-XHP and I cease to care about edge retention as I will touch the edge up long before it gets close to dull. My favourite steel is still Hitachi’s Super Blue (Aogami)- great edge retention with above average ease of sharpening.
Are Buck’s s30v knives worth getting?
I think Buck has some of the most consistent heat treat regimen in the industry, Never had a problem with their S30V blades (or any blades for that matter) so yes, definitely a solid choice with marked improvement over their 420HC in terms of edge retention.
Thanks for dropping by Tim!
I agree Victoronox has never even told anybody what steel they use and I think that might be all for the best
100% agree. Victorinox steel has always been dependable for me.
I love the time it must have taken you to write this, and it is well written, but I must ask, are you saying good steel is good regardless? I disagree, I had a sog with aus8 and a benchmade with d2, and the d2 is far (and I mean light years away) from the much lesser aus8.
Hi Levi! The heat treat matters more than the steel type. I have AUS-8A blades that keep on cutting (Cold Steel AUS-8 is very nice) and D2 blades that are subpar in performance (An old school KA-BAR folder with a D2 blade). Quality is a multifaceted issue and can’t be summed up by steel choice alone.
Thanks for commenting Levi, I appreciate it.
This was a very nice article overall and I agree with most of your ideas and only a few I disagree with. Lately I’ve been going away from super steels(partialy because I tried most of them) in favor of simpler steels that have higher edge stability. The steel that changed it all for me was Nitrobe 77, its some amazing stuff but unfortunately its very rare in knives. I find that I prefer higher cutting ability and that usually means thinner ground knives and higher edge angles, something that high carbide steels have a harder time with. I find that steels like n77, 13c26, O1, 19c27 and othef lower carbide steels are usually ground thinner and can take a lower edge angle which actually raises its edge retention overall. Id rathef use my gec 71 in O1 ground to 0.008 and at 10dps that a zt in 204p at 0.035 and 20dps. The cutting ability difference is huge between the tw0. I still buy new knjves in newer steels like the hap40 endura and s110v para2 and cpm mr is one of my favorite steels still since it can take being ground thinner and lower angles better than other supef steels imo. I do disagree with yoyr opinion that cruwead was wasted in military/manix2. If you look its wear resistance is closd to s30v so no big liss there but having higher toughness its edge should chip less and it should be able to take lower edge angles than s30v, I have a cruwear milie on the way and I will test it. Plus it gives us nerds/steel junkees a new steel to try in a great platform for the same money.
You and other posters are right about heat treat and geometry being more Important than just the steel type. Its one of the reasons I started buying custom made knives because I can ask for a steel and pick the hardness I want and how thin the grind is. I love spyderco, they make some of my favorite knives but I wish they ran their steeks a but harder or have leaner grinds. I know why its done, both prevent more warranty claims but microtech and fantoni can run their s30v at 61-62 hrc and have thin grinds (especially microtech) and you dont see them going out of business or hear how their edge chip. If anything, id prefer a hardef heat treat, a knife xan be reground if the owner desires but it’s very hard to change the hardness of steel.
To sum it up, I do agree that too mych emphasis is placec on newer super duper steels and much less on how its heat treated, how its ground and what its used for. S7 is the toughest steel you can get but it makes no sense to use in a folder. S90v has great wear resistance but would make a sub par chopper and m4 is a great overall steel but would make a bad diving knife. I dont see the high carbide steel craze dying soon, its ok since I like to check out the newest steel but I do wish more knives would be made in “simpler” steels with better heat treats.
Thank you for dropping by and sharing your experiences Alex. I am always glad when people are on the same page as me when it comes to edge geometry over steel composition!
Never tried a Microtech (no auto’s in Canada) or Fantoni. Which of their knives would you recommend? Really curious regarding S30V at a high HRC now!
Hi Thomas
Just read your comment and your expectations for S30V at higher (+59 HRC)
Be careful with that expectation! I used S30V a lot before S35VN came out and can testify to the chipping and fissure crack situation.
Despite that, there is not a lot of difference between these 2 steels, same manufacturer but the 0.5% Niob in the S35VN makes it!
Better machinability, you can polish that steel and no chipping and fissure cracks when HT right. The kitchen knives I make out of it I harden to ~ 60-61 HRC and they keep a fine and thin edge very long.
For the hunting knives I go a bit lower to ~ 57-58 HRC as they experience a lot more abuse than the kitchen knives.
I do not use S30V anymore as I think the follow up steel S35VN is superior!
Peter – Terrier Blades
Howdy Peter! Thanks for sharing your experiences- which (production) knife do you think is a good representation of S35VN at high HRC? I am curious to try it out now!
i think diminishing returns is a great way of putting it when it comes to super steels. you pretty much said it. the average person cannot tell much of a difference after a certain point.
i have a wide range of different knives in lots of different steels. there are plenty of factors to consider, but first and foremost, i want to be able to put a good edge on it, and i want it to hold that edge for a reasonable amount of time. While not considered a super steel, i have had great success with, and enjoy knives with 154CM.
i probably have more S30V knives than any other. overall, i like it. you just have to have a little dedication to get the edge you want. good article
Howdy Brian! I definitely agree that ease of maintenance is a factor, however with modern mechanical sharpeners like the WorkSharp or diamond abrasives I find that its a secondary concern for me (these days).
154cm is a fine steel, I own a Benchmade Griptilian in that configuration and it has never given me anything but good performance. S30V is a great all around steel, especially if heat treated to a relatively high hardness like Spyderco does (59+). Its always disappointing to have a great steel with non-optimal heat treat.
I own only a single knife that I had bought in the first place because of its special “Above-Average Premium Steel” ZDP 189, the Delicia 4 with this special steel. My subjective impression is that this small knife, compared to my other knives, has the sharpest edge and stays very long sharp when it is used to its intended purpose to cut small things and not in chopping wood …
But even with simple steel grades, such as the commonly by Kershaw used 8Cr13MoV, I have good experiences. When buying a knife you should always also keep in mind how to get the knife sharp again when it becomes dull and are you able to sharpen the blade with the available resources at your own or do I need a specialist for it?
This consideration leads directly on “Sharpening”, but this is a another new topic …
I agree that the ability to maintain your knife is just as important as the steel grade itself. I love the ZDP-189 Spyderco’s! One of my favourite series of knives. I will say that Kershaws 8cr13MoV has always proved to be sufficient for everyday tasks. I really don’t get a lot of the elitism that gets thrown around on internet forums when discussing steel choice.
Hi Thomas
Spending the morning searching the internet for S35VN I came upon your blog.
Very interesting and actually well written, my compliments.
As knife maker I have the believe that:
steel is the heart of the knife and heat treating is the art of the knife maker!
for both a good knowledge of metallurgy is required …… which a lot of makers and users do not have. HT is not that easy and ‘following the cooking procedure’ does not cut it in my mind!!!
Here some thoughts on knives; the knife has to be designed according to its use and this will determine size, geometry, edge design AND steel.
i.e. different steel for machety than for a straight razor ……
the right combination of all these factors will create a good knife; and in some cases a super steel is not what mass production likes for manufacturing reasons as well as price reasons.
Here I would like to differentiate between home/hobby and professional use; professionals generally value better performing knives higher than hobbyists and they will generally tend to the super-steel as well as being prepared to spend the money for it. tickling out the best performance/HT of S110V needs special attention, cost money and needs close supervision during the HT just to mention that steel.
However a good and well designed/made knife can show surprising results with mediocre steel and might outrun a badly made knife with super steel. as well as a super steel can be used for a variety of different knives.
So lots of things to consider when designing a knife, steel is just only one.
just one more thing, do not only look at factory/mass produced knives, there are some really good and nice once out there despite Spiderco, CRKT, ESEE etc…
I think “However a good and well designed/made knife can show surprising results with mediocre steel and might outrun a badly made knife with super steel.” is a well phrased salient point. I wish more people realized this.
Thanks for dropping by Peter, your kitchen blades looks pretty badass (especially the Kiritsuke Gyuto), Very nice work.
Hi Thomas. Just wondering why you are against folding Cruwear blades (i.e. Military sprint in Cruwear). It was my understanding that this might be a good change of pace since it’s so tough compared to other steels.
Howdy Eric,
My issue is not Cruwear in itself but rather the type of knife it was put in. Cruwear is (as you put it) a steel with relatively high tensile strength, however in a knife like the military its completely wasted as the blade is not its weak point.
The Millie is a tactical slicer with reasonably thick stock to be able to handle some lateral stress but its by no means a beater or folding pry bar so I would prefer a knife steel better suited for its purpose like CPM S90V or CTS-120P.
Hope that clarifies and thanks for dropping by!
Fantastic article. Both author & contributors. Covers just about all my opinions about steels and their marketability. Sure, I’m partly a steel nerd, but I always wonder why Boker & Buck (for example) keep churning out 440C blades. They do know a bit …
Thanks, Dave
Thanks for dropping by David & I am really glad you like the article!
While I do appreciate various companies experimenting with higher end steels, I think that the marketing has lost touch with reality with regards to the importance of the differing characters all steels have. The importance has been solely focused on edge retention.
I have come to the realization that what tends to suffer with these duper steels is the ease of sharpening.
The ability to gey a knife sharp and keep it that way has been lost in the hype and is extremely important.
I mean, think about it, how much better if it takes hours to put that edge back and what if you just cannot get back that razor edge? Rex121 can hold its edge forever but if I damage that edge I am probably never going to get that razor exge back where a good O1 takes minutes and I am getting an extremely fine edge back.
Its really a balance between the 2. Like the balance between dtainlessness and toughness.
I also think the whole carbon steel and rust is blown ojt of proportion. It’s really not hard to maintain carbon steel,, even a newb.
I just reviewed the Cold Steel Kudu which has 4116 Krupp stainless steel and I was enamored with how easy it was to maintain the edge. Its definitely an understated feature.
Hi again. Nice writing as always, but I don’t agree with some points. Here’s my somewhat educated opinion:
If I give you a piece of 440 steel so you can create a knife, I give the exact same to Marttiini, and both happen to make a knife with exactly the same size, weight and format, do you think the knives will be the same? I believe not.
You would create a handcrafted piece, heating and cooling the steel while you work, probably ending with manual quench and a lot of chemical discrepancies on the steel. Marttiini would make a piece using a robotized facility and high-precision methods in a well controlled environment.
In the end, both knives will probably have different hardness, different edge retention, different toughness, different wear resistance, different performance. However, they have the exact same steel.
From my point of view, people give way too much importance to the name of a steel. What about heat treatment? Do you think the 8cr13MoV is exactly the same on a Kershaw Emerson and on a Spyderco? Do they have the same hardness? What about tempering?
Performance is not just about the name of the steel, there are many variables to consider.
Also, I don’t think there are good steels or bad steels. There’s different steels, that should be selected according to their final use. I don’t think that 52100 would make a good sword, but it would make a great skinning knife.
The choice of a steel should be made knowing what uses you’ll put your knife to, because that will have an impact on the edge.
However, marketing plays a huge role in all this. Like you said, it works because the users are nerds, and most of them don’t even use their knives much.
But Victorinox and Leatherman have been using something like 420 or 440 steel for years, and I’ve never seen one single person complaining about it. Think about that.
Finally, “razor sharp” is a funny concept. People don’t realize they can sharp a stone to the point it can be used as an actual razor. Of course the edge retention is ridiculous, but that’s exactly my point.
PS: Sorry for any mistypes, english is not my main language.
So what points do you disagree with exactly? Sounds like we are on the same page! I have always argued that heat treat was more important than the steel used.
True. I read the article once more and I understand that we actually agree on that. I need to sleep more before posting stuff online…
By the way, what is your opinion on the 8Cr13MoV used on the Kershaw Emerson knives?
I own maybe 20 knives made of 8Cr13MoV and found it comparable to 420J2/AUS-8, perfectly acceptable for everyday use, 58/59HRC seems to be the sweet spot in terms of hardness I have yet to see it chip, seems the edge prefers to bend when face with lateral stress.
All in all, with price taken into account I would say its quite a good steel for cutlery purposes!
Thanks for the feedback.
I don’t know why I haven’t bought a Kershaw Emerson yet, I guess I will have to do it soon before they disappear.
Hi Thomas, Great article. Was just curious because you spoke about CPM s35vn briefly. Would you categorize it the same as CPMs30v in the “average premium steel” ?
Currently looking at a Spyderco Paramilitary 2 with dark green g-10 scales and CTS-204p steel.
Howdy Dan, yes I would consider S35VN to be basically the same as S30V, in real world use I can’t tell the difference.
CTS-204p is a fantastic super steel and the Paramilitary 2 is probably the highest performing folder for the money. You won’t have any regrets!
I dunno about you, but I can absolutely tell the difference in cutting ability between my Kershaw cryo (8cr13mov) and my sog Vulcan (vg-10). Even though my cryo will take a fantastic edge on even the simplest sharpening tool, that edge will be gone after 5 minutes of opening packages at work. My Vulcan, on the other hand, takes serious time and effort just to get it to cut paper, but will hold its edge after days and days of stripping wood for kindling.
Howdy Sam. A lot of the differences in cutting ability that people experience is based on a perception of quality- not quantifiable results. VG-10 is actually a substandard steel (using Ankerson’s ranking it’s in the 7th category which is 3rd from bottom). Definitely not supersteel material!
Other than perception, there are a few things that could account for the differences in cutting ability between your knives: either the grinds differ so drastically that the edge integrity breaks at different points based on the hardness of the material you are trying to cut, or you got a particularly badly heat treated knife with the Cryo.
To test, sharpen both knives at the same angle & cut consistently abrasive materials over and over again. Measure sharpness based on clean cuts over a specific distance- the results will likely surprise you! Side note: stripping wood is a extremely easy task that should not affect the cutting performance of your knives after only a few days and cutting packages for 5 minutes should not dull any knife- regardless of steel! If that knife really does dull that quickly, I would send it back, as it must have a heat treat defect. Last time I tested 8Cr13MoV I could cut 20 feet of abrasive cardboard with the edge remaining consistently sharp besides the initial drop in cutting performance/pressure required.
Great review.
Just a a word about the Spyderco Military you mentionned.
It was first released in S60V (CPM440V) then in S30V.
The BG42 version was a sprint run during the S30V years.
It was an upgrade in the Chris Reeve Sebenza saga: ATS 34 -> BG-42 -> S30V -> S35V.
For the record I was never able to get a decent edge on my BG42 Sebbie.
But my old ATS 34 Sebenza is a razor and easy to maintain. For me it was the best version.
Also the grind and geometry were better back in the 90’s. My two cents. :-)
Salut Nemo! For some reason I thought BG42 was the original but now I remember the military had MILITARY on the blade with CPM 440V , Golden, Colorado USA inscribed right underneath it, this was before my obsession with Spyderco’s though so I never owned any knives from that era.
How did Spyderco convince people that S30V was an “upgrade” to S60V?
Thanks for visiting!
Hi Thomas,
Spyderco were the first to use CPM440V / S60V. It’s their pionneer’s spirit to boldly try new steel. Sal Glesser is considering himself as a “steel wh0re”…
CPM440V has been installed on some flat ground knives (The millie, the Lil’Temperance…) and some hollow ground blades (Starmate, Native…). For me that steel used to have a very strong aura of being able to cut and cut and cut…. I still got a Starmate that I cherrish. S60V like S90V felt “elastic” under the stone.
S30V was an impulsion coming from Chris Reeve. He get close to Crucible for getting the powder steel he wanted. S30V was less tricky than S60V and perhaps tougher.
My first experience with S30V came not from Spyderco, CRK but from Benchmade. I was very surprised how well it behaved. So how Spydero convince people ?
I first think Sal have S30V tested since time zero as he and Chris Reeve are friends exchanging info for now 25 years. Sal and his crew was enough impressed by S30V to propose it on the Miltary.
Especially while people were complaining about the tip of millie snapping. Strenght was mandatory.
So for Spyderco I do think it was logical move. :-)
Now before the quality of steel there are two important factors involved in the quality of a blade:
The heat treatment and the geometry ! Then the steel. :-)
Cheers
Nemo
Very interesting Nemo, I can’t say I would have been happy to trade S60V for S30V but I do think S30V is one of the better “all-round” steels for edc knives. Agreed that HT and edge geometry is paramount, you only have to look at Ankerson’s testing on BF to see how a couple of points in hardness can shift the performance of a steel up or down a category!
P.S Updated the article, thanks for the correction!
An excellent common sense article! Having a good edge means having good stones. And, is it really worth all the extra time it takes to put an edge on the “better” steel?
For many people I am sure having a supersteel is worth the downsides, but I agree that being able to keep your knife sharp is extremely important. I would invest in a good sharpening system before buying a knife that is notoriously difficult to sharpen.
I’ve got quite a few knives and I find that most of mine fall into the average premium steel range. I’m very comfortable with 154 CM, VG-10, and S30v. I think they represent a pretty big jump up from the 440C and 8Cr13MoV to be worth paying more for them but if I like a knife in a “lesser” steel I will buy it.
I’ve been playing with an M4 blade and have to say it is a clear step above the other steels I usually use. It has lived up to the hype in my opinion.
Howdy Mike! M4 is pretty damn awesome, I spent some time playing with a Spyderco Gayle Bradley and I was very impressed with how tough such a lean hollow ground blade could be. Which M4 blade do you own?
I’ve got the Benchmade Contego. At work I end up cutting a lot of wet sandy rope, which can really wreck an edge, and the M4 has held up at least twice as well than S30v.
I love your blog keep the posts coming!
I have the Contego in M390. I use it for everything from wire/coaxial cable stripping, to cutting cardboard and strips of industrial Velcro with adhesive backing, and then the more general pocket knife everyday uses. I love the knife, and the design is amazing. It’s large for a folder, but the design is so good it handles and cuts amazingly well and safely. I have some vg10 spydercos and this knife is a big step up in edge retention, but the Dragonfly is still my main go to. My humble opinion is that the treatment of the steel and design of the blade matter most. I look at spyderco’s handling of ZDP189 vs Rockstead knives’ treatment (and price difference lol!) ZDP behaves decidedly average unless it’s treated properly–a maxim I would say is true for any steel.
On a tangent–at any rate, I wanted to second your love for the Contego. Carried daily for over a year, and every time I use it I love it more, or find some new aspect of the design that I’m surprised by and appreciate more.
Agree 100% mate, the heat treat is the soul of the blade as they say.
Thanks for dropping by John!
I had a Buck Crosslock from 20 years ago that I just gave to my girls Dad, it was still in minty condition after all this time & use, no super steel was used there! I appreciate the logic you used when you laid this down.
LOVE….your Blog! You & your wife do a fantastic job. I have told my girl numerous times how nice this site is, it’s not some end of the world, the Government is tainting our air and Zombies are coming sort of write up. The knife coverage has been great, and why I ended up checking out Spyderco’s and Benchmade. Bought a Spyderco for my best friend and myself, a Benchmade. I had the Benchmade 950, returned it for a 551BK Griptilian after seeing your review of the 551 and installed custom Allen Putman G10 grips, love it!
I have a Tops Mil-Spie 3.5 folder, check that one out…great weight and toughness.
Howdy James! First of all thanks for the huge compliment, I agree that some blogs do make you feel like a zombie is always behind you and if you step outside your front door you have a good chance of catching ebola! We for sure try to be a bit more down to earth whilst imparting meaningful information and we are glad you like it!
Those custom Allen Putman Grips look amazing, What color did you get and did you have that honeycomb pattern cnc’d into them?
Right on Thomas, to that point your article a while back on Advil, Tylenol, or Aspirin? was everyday good stuff.
My scales by Allen Putman are the honeycomb cnc’d pattern in black (Allen had none in-stock on his page so I emailed him, and he had mine on hand, Grip is also centered!) as I was going for the “looks like stock” or as though Benchmade made it look and feel. Speaking of which, I called Benchmade and asked about their deep pocket carry clip for the Griptilian, they gave me a choice of black or silver and are sending it out free of charge, super nice!
Wow, Benchmade has great customer service! How do you like the deep carry clip? I only have the regular one- maybe I should send an e-mail to Benchmade too!
I recommend calling them, way faster service. I won’t have the new clip until tomorrow or Monday, looks like the same clip BM uses on the Triage, when done this is going to be a nice custom Griptilian. BM number 1-800-800-7427. To ref back to your article here, for the money, D2 or 154CM fits the bill for me so long as the price point is the same for either, sometimes they can charge a lot for D2 and I would rather have CPM-M4 in that case. We can all be steel geeks or snobs, design and where\how it’s made are first for me.
To me it is often a matter of diminishing returns. At what point is something “good enough?” I have knives that were made 50 years ago that are still in good shape after fairly regular use. I don’t think that there was even such a notion of “super steel” back then.
The diminishing returns with cutlery grade steel is for sure quite extreme. Specially with the jump from premium to supersteel.
What is your list of steels based off of ? Because sure there are cheaper steels that are crap, but overall all steels have strengths and weaknesses and to say s30v is better then 1075 is purely based of opinion and use. One steel may keep a better edge while another may be tougher. Usually the better the edge retention the more brittle the steel. Personally I think it’s all about finding the perfect balance of edge retention and toughness. For a survival knife sure you want the Knife to hold a good edge, but you want it to be tough above all, to stand up against all the abuse. Now 440c may not be as expensive but it also has a nice balance of strengths. For a flipper a hard steel with good edge retention would be great, but that doesn’t mean that steel would be great on a survival knife or bush craft knife. My point is, all steels serve better in different cases. To say one steel is average but another is premium, then what is this based off ? Are you talking about flippers, diving knives, survival knives, what ? Because one steel may be great for one knife or use, but bad for another. Honestly sla few of the steels you have rated lower are better Al around steels then some of the steels you have rated higher…
It’s a complicated subject, for sure. One day I decided to do a little test to see what’s what. It was very informal, and went like this: I needed to cut-up corrugated cardboard boxes for recycle pick-up. I chose several SS knives and a couple of so-called Carbon blades. Now, cutting cardboard is pure hell on a knife. Well, the results surprised me. Some well-respected steels, like VG-10, went dull after 2 boxes. One SS blade of AUS-8 barely made it through the 2nd box. A 1095 knife did 3 boxes, but the champ was a Cold Steel Carbon V TrailMaster, which did 6 boxes. Incredibly, the blade got so hot from the abrasive friction of the cardboard, that when I touched it, it burned my fingers!
As much as the steel, is the geometry of the blade and the heat treat. “Toughness” is over-rated as a criterion for blade steel, imo. The exception is large, heavy, trail knives. A normal hunter, or skinner of around 3″ to 3-1/2″ isn’t going to require a huge amount of toughness. The so-called Carbon blades can have exceptional sharpness, edge retention, strength, and toughness. But, their Achilles heel is the corrosion. I’ve had very good Japanese kitchen knives that didn’t need to be sharpened for Two Years of normal, everyday use. However, that fine edge was susceptible to pitting and deterioration due to corrosion. The aforementioned CS TrailMaster was used, cleaned & oiled, then left outside overnight while seaside camping. In the morning, the Entire knife blade was covered in fine rust. There was even some minor pitting.
Meanwhile, I’ve had some really cheap SS kitchen knives that have been in use for over 35 years with NO corrosion. They don’t take or hold a keen edge, but hey.
Other than expensive, hand-forged, collectible knives, I will not bother with the so-called Carbon steel blades.
There have been great advances in SS in the last 10+ years. Today you can get good corrosion resistance, great sharpness & retention, plus all the toughness you’ll ever need in a knife primarily used for slicing; eg- hunter, skinner.
If you had read the article and comprehended it, you would know the author based it off of edge retention.
A good blade of 440C – properly tempered – is excellent in its own right. Not a bad steel at all.
420 HC (the term “high carbon” is very relative and a bit of a joke here) can even be respectable when well tempered. Even 420HC (be Buck) beats SAK steel, which many people consider quite serviceable (including me).
I agree 100%, I like super steels but never had any issues with the relatively soft stainless from Wenger/Victorinox.
Hey first time positing! Great blog – good technical information from posters who (unlike many other sites) appear to actually know something.
I know this thread is old but I have to comment on the utility of ordinary steels.
I once took a 1200 mile, 75 day canoe expedition from Bissett Manitoba, to York Factory on Hudson Bay. This was through serious wilderness. The knife on my belt? A humble Victorinox Huntsman. It was sharp at the beginning and still serviceable at the end. I had a sharpening stone but used it only on my fillet knife (a Normark Presentation in 12C27 and rather excellent- it got touched up because it was used very frequently). Back to the Swiss Army knife – used daily to open foil and plastic food pouches, cut fishing line, food prep (on those rare occasions when we got fresh vegetables from a reservation town) cutting rope once in a while, and lots of wood carving – fuzz sticks for rainy day fire building. Plus I like to whittle when sitting around said fire. Granted, up north it is soft wood – pine, fur, birch, maple. But the Swiss knife is quite adequate as a camp site tool, even in deep wilderness. Others in the group carried large knives such as Buck 110’s or sheath knives, so we had that covered. Many scout leaders an professional guides (NOLS, Outward Bound, etc. carry Swiss knives).
Swiss Army knives hold an edge better than people give them credit for, if the uses are reasonable. By the way, if we needed to split logs, we used an axe!
Yep, it seems so often that people fall to this narrative of a steel being useless if its not a bleeding edge super steel- which of course doesn’t match up with reality. Always had great experiences with the relatively soft Victorinox steel and I don’t see that changing tbh. Thanks for dropping by!