This is going to be a different kind of article. No gear or techniques to aid in survival, but nonetheless – it’s a topic I want to discuss because it relates to something that is often brought up, though rarely do we discuss its consequences. I have been musing about this topic for a while now, thanks to the divisive narrative that I see around me these days.
Violence. It’s an ugly word and yet as a species we are obsessed with it. We embrace its potential and elevate it to something almost academic. A while back I stumbled upon an article detailing the top 5 ways to kill an armed robber; this sort of detached commentary has become the bread and butter of the survival community, and it’s left an elephant in the room that often goes wholly ignored, but that I think needs to adequately be discussed.
Spyderco Tenacious EDC Folding Knife – Amazon / Blade HQ
Killing. It’s difficult, so difficult in fact that we as a species have a natural aversion to random acts of violence. You may be sitting at home thinking that if you needed to protect your family you would kill, and you know what? I would be right there with you in regards to that assessment. I have no reservations about defending my home or my family. With that said, killing is very different from the pseudo heroics that Hollywood shoves down our throat. Its application was complex enough that one of the best “tactical” books ever written, On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, talks exclusively about the methods and techniques various militaries have used to force young soldiers to overcome their aversion to doing it.
We as a species are all about life, survival and death. Often those intersect. We may need to kill to survive and to protect life, but the objective reality is that killing is the brutal conclusion stemming a violent act. Plain and simple.
We talk a lot about the potential for violence and the harsh realities of conflict in the world. I am guilty of this, too, with my recent articles, and whilst I stand by everything I wrote, I admittedly did all this without considering death. Its finality was brought home to me by a longtime reader and someone I consider a friend – Dan Seven. His comments are frequently insightful and thought provoking, even if we disagree on some issues, and his response to my self-defence & home defence scribbles over the last month were no exception.
Now, I won’t be discussing PTSD or the trauma inherent in taking a life, I am 100% not qualified to do so, but I am interested in acknowledging and discussing limits, especially my own. In this chaotic and unpredictable world, we are drowning in the potential for conflict. Now, as Dan loves to say, the numbers don’t lie. We are a safer society, but on the other hand, we publicise and record absolutely everything so we hear about violence so much more. The natural consequence to being bombarded with threats through the media is that we overthink scenarios.
We plan for x, y, and z. If terrorists try to hijack a plane, we will do this and save the day. etc. etc. This narrative is not inherently bad, discussing situations and our response to them is healthy but I do find myself wondering with some of the underlying sentiment I read about sometimes, if people have really thought things through and if they are truly prepared to deal with the act of extinguishing life.
Yet again, not to say that it isn’t a good thing to step up and save the lives of family members, those aboard a hijacked plane, or any other similar situation. It is (in my opinion). But that doesn’t mean it will be easy.
I know this is an odd article to scribble out, but it’s a topic I have been mulling over for quite a while and I really want to hear your thoughts on the matter, as I write this, 2 people who I greatly respect (Zack & Dan) have clashed heads over this exact issue on our forum.
Clearly, it’s a divisive topic with no true right or wrong. The distinction between thought and action being derived from one’s own personal limits with regards to the act of killing and the consequences that they bring home – intended or otherwise.
Where do you stand on this? Any anecdotal (or personal) events that have changed your mind?
I watched a kitten die a horrible, painful death, knowing I should just smother her or whatever to end her pain…. but I was a coward and could only watch, horrified and frozen. I will never forget that awful experience, and you’re right…. in the moment, unless you’re psychologically different than most people, the act itself feels viscerally abhorrent. I know you’re probably thinking ‘but it’s not a human!’ But if I reacted that way to the thought of killing an animal, I imagine most people would react at least the same way when faced with the possibility of having to kill a human. If anything, the experience made me determined to push through my personal feelings and do what has to be done, because guilt goes both ways. Regardless, I guess the important thing is to be mindful of what you can live with. Good article.
Aye. :( I can’t imagine being in such a situation. I do think I would try to end an animals suffering if I could but my love of cats is so strong that I don’t know if I would have the strength.
I’m not going to bore you with my bona fidas, let’s just say that I was ‘in training’ for combat since I can remember.
For the most part, it wasn’t by choice, I simply didn’t want to be beat up or killed by the other guy.
The problem for most people, is that they take the (sometimes) necessity of killing and turn it into something personal.
If you’ve attempted to avoid the conflict, made every attempt to de-escalate, if you’ve used every lesser level of force possible, then you have to do it, particularly if your family is present.
It isn’t a matter of machismo, not a matter of bravado, or anything else. The matter is one of pure pragmatism, if this person has shown such determination to engage in unneeded aggression then what will happen to your family if you are no longer part of the equation?
Are you willing to wager their lives, that the violence will come to a stop when you’re down? Especially when the person initiated an attack as you were attempting to de-escalate?
I’ve spent most of my life in the professions of arms, probably seen a damn site more than most, I’m not taking that chance.
I’m not even willing to bet the life of a street corner hooker on that one. People that determined to rampage over ‘nothing’ are prone to the same type of outbursts over pretty much anything; eventually they do kill.
With them, it’s pretty much an accident and due to their rage, but that still leaves the other person just as dead.
I’ll pull the trigger, make the report and hire an attorney.
After I’ve extended every effort demanded by ethics and law, there won’t be any hesitation, nearly died once from trying too hard.
I came here from a link about storm prepping at Instapundit, and stayed around for a look. I myself was faced with a life-or-death situation arising out a road-rage incident a few years ago. I too had always thought that when faced with a mortal threat that I could unhesitatingly take another human life. But the issue is indeed far more complicated than we might think.
I was bringing my 7-year-old daughter home from soccer practice about 8:30 pm one Spring night when a driver of a crew cab pickup tried to wedge into my turn lane. He finally struck my vehicle in frustration at there being no room to merge after he had passed several cars on the left and then tried to break into the turn lane. It was obviously deliberate, but I wasn’t all that alarmed because although I was in my early 40’s, at 6′ and 270 pounds as a former high school lineman I was a big, fairly athletic and muscular man who was still in moderately good shape. But the crew cab driver was clearly in better shape, about 30 years old and about 6′ 2″ and a very lean and muscular 220 pounds. Still, I wasn’t alarmed. I was a suburban husband and father who lived in a virtually crime-free bedroom community, and bad crazy things just didn’t happen in our community. I could handle myself. I thought.
But I wasn’t ready for him. That was my first mistake. He advanced on me, and as I began speaking, without a word he hit me. He punched me twice, very quickly, breaking my wire-rim glasses and opening a cut above my eye. Blood began pouring from that cut (other than the obstruction to my vision the fact of the blood didn’t worry me much at the time because I knew even the smallest head and face cuts can bleed profusely). I finally grasped that we were going to have a fight. I grabbed him with one hand and pounded on him with the other as we traded some licks before I took him down. I was a high school wrestler as well and used those skills to down him and get on top of him while I used my bulk to ride him and keep him down. He fought like a mad thing, hitting, clawing and even grabbing for my testicles. (Thank God I was dressed to help coach my daughter’s soccer practice, and, while I was wearing loose athletic shorts, I did have on a “man jock” full brief athletic supporter which prevented him from being able to grip my testicles and thus gave me some vital protection.)
Meanwhile I was literally holding this guy down with one hand while I pounded the living hell out of him with my other. Or so I thought. I gave him shot after shot to the face, the jaw, the nose, and I simply could not hurt this guy. It finally struck me that he was on something, and I got scared. We rolled on the ground awhile, with him trying to get out from under me as I whaled away on him without apparent effect.
I finally decided I was going to have to have to choke him down to get this wild man under control. So I got a classic two-hand, locked-out chokehold on him, trying to compress the carotids. He struggled to get my hands off him or to reach my own face, but my arms were in such a position that he couldn’t really hurt me. As I was choking him, I told him that this was crazy, and that it needed to stop. I told him to let me know when he’d had enough and I’d let him up, but that otherwise I was keep on until he went out. He finally quit fighting and signaled he was done.
I let off and got off him. Second mistake. I picked myself up and turned to go check on my daughter who was in my vehicle the whole time crying and screaming at seeing her daddy rolling around on the ground with another man. As I turned away to check on her, this guy, having had a few breaths of air, renews his attack on me, hitting me in the back of the head. There is a virtual repeat of the first round, with me taking him down and getting on top of him, again hitting him many times with no effect whatsoever. I even grabbed HIS testicles and squeezed for all I was worth – no effect at all.
And let me tell you, seeing a man immune to having his balls crushed, that will turn your bowels to water. I was scared of this guy now. So it didn’t take as long this time before I started choking him down once again. This time I gave it everything I had, really trying to almost kill him. He resisted mightily, effectively tensing his bull neck, but I was gaining on him. I told him, “I will kill you if I have to. I don’t want to, because my little girl is watching, but I will kill your ass if you make me.” Once gain he signaled he’d had enough. This time he stayed on the ground, apparently overcome. I walked over to check on my daughter in my vehicle, now some 30 yards away as we had rolled all over creation in our fight. My third mistake.
Before I could get there, AGAIN he attacked with my back turned. The only difference was, this time he had a long-handled shovel he had retrieved from the back of his pickup. And he was swinging it at me like a baseball bat. I was backing away and playing “Ole!” as he swung at me, trying seriously to hurt me. In fact he caught me a blow above the same eye that had been cut by my glasses when he first hit me. This time he opened me up enough that I needed a bunch of stitches later, and I now have a jagged 4-inch conversation piece in my left eyebrow and into my forehead.
All the while we had been fighting, about half a dozen cars had been stopped at this exit, watching everything. I was trying to avoid being cut into by this square-point shovel and yelling to the witnesses to please call the police. It was the mention of police that was the only thing that made this crazy man stop his attack and pause long enough for me to run to my car.
As I took his pause as a chance to run, already I was struggling to decide what to do if he renewed his attack yet again. Do I reach under the driver’s seat and get my 9mm and kill the bastard then and there, in front of my little girl? Do I affect her entire life with the trauma of seeing her father kill another human being? But how can I safely avoid doing so? Could I get into my vehicle quickly enough and start it up before he struck me and possibly killed or maimed me for life? He had renewed his chase and was only yards away when I knew I had time for only one course of action: to kill him, or try to escape.
As he chased me holding that long-handled shovel with what I am convinced was murder on his mind, in an instant I came to my decision: I could not burden my daughter with seeing her father take a man’s life. I prayed to get into my vehicle smoothly and to start it up without a hitch. Luckily I had left the doors unlocked and the key in the ignition. I hopped in and cranked up and instantly pulled out, with the maniac swinging away with his shovel on the side panel, even busting out my left back window. I pulled far enough away that he couldn’t get to us. About this time he decided it would probably be a good idea to leave, and he got to his truck and took off. But police were not far behind him and arrested him down the road a mile or two.
My poor little daughter was near hysterical, seeing me covered in blood from the head wound. I had to assure her it looked far worse than it was and that I wasn’t really hurt. A lovely lady bystander, whom I will always be grateful to came over to help with my daughter and keep my baby girl company while I told police what had happened. It turned out the guy was a building contractor who had spent the previous four hours drinking and doing crystal meth, which goes a long way to explaining both his combativeness and why I couldn’t hurt him. He was charged with attempted murder and pled guilty to a First Degree Assault and received a 10 year custody sentence.
One of the little ironies about this is that I was a federal prosecutor, and routinely worked with not only federal law enforcement agents, but most of the local police departments as well. I even knew some of the officers called out to handle this matter, and they could not have been more accommodating and helpful. When I showed up for work the next day with my forehead and eye wrapped up like a mummy, all the law enforcement types thought it was a hilarious hoot. They got a kick out of the fact that the lawyer got a taste of what it was like to really tussle with the bad guys.
But this incident really brought home to me the emotional component of being in a shoot-to-kill situation. I had no doubt at any time that I was in the right, and that I would have been exonerated of any blame in the incident if I had killed the man. Indeed I am sure many people would have considered me a hero if I had shot and killed a crazy man as he tried to kill me and possibly my daughter.
Still, that’s not the way it felt. I was grateful that night that I had not been called on to kill that fool, as dangerous and deadly as he was. And I have been grateful ever since. Yes, the situation was complicated by my daughter being a witness and the burden it would have placed on her to have shot him. But by the same token I realize I was putting her life at risk by not shooting that maniac. Still, I’m so very thankful I didn’t.
All this doesn’t change the fact that today I sleep with a .45 inches from my hand. I’m older now, and my wife, who is now in a wheelchair, and I are starting to look like perfect victims for a home invasion. But I don’t think there will be any hesitation if that door is kicked in.
What a story mate, I think (objectively) that I probably would have handled the situation similar to you. Its a tough one for sure and made tougher still by having your daughter witness the sheer stupidity of mankind in action.
I am really grateful you dropped by to share this, I have sent this comment to some of my friends and its given me a lot to think about (and I am sure the other readers too).
Stay safe Sardondi, got nothing else to add to the convo but “wow.”.
Thomas told me to come read this comment, and wow am I glad I did. I’m so glad things turned out the way they did, so easily could’ve gone the other way by the sound of it. And yet, I think this *was* the best decision for your daughter’s sake.
Not the kind of experience anyone should ever wish on their enemy.
And yes, completely represents the heart of the matter. With an added level considering you had to take into account your daughter and her experience and future as well.
As Thomas said, thank you so much for sharing this with us!
Taking another’s life, no matter the situation in civilian life, WILL be extremely hard on you, for the rest of your life. Even in military combat, you will “remember” specific incidents with total clarity, usually happens when I am asleep.
As a civilian, you will be second-guessed by EVERYBODY, and almost every official will be looking to try and hang you out to dry legally and civilly (for damages). That is the way our US justice system operates, my U.K. Criminal courts experience is limited, but the two systems are completely different from one another.
I decided long ago, no “property “, the sole exception being firearms, was worth shooting someone for. That is why we carry insurance. The thug demographic burglarizing you literally isn’t worth shooting in my book.
However, once they make the transition from burglary to physical violence, then, do what you have to do and don’t look back.
A mentor once shared with me the fol?owing, “…violence is rarely ever the answer. However, when it IS the answer, it is the ONLY answer.”
Each of us must figure out for ourselves, where that line is.
Good thoughts mate, in the UK self-defence is a right but the parameters of engagement are very rigid consequently its best to avoid escalating conflict to a violent confrontation whenever possible.
No hay que perfer muchovel tiempo con este tema, generalmente msnda el cerebro, pero, en ocasiones extremas de peligro o supervivencia, sale el reptil que se rncatgara de que sigamos vivos, anteponiendose a leues normas etc.
Puedes jurar que nunca comeras carne humana?
Que no le cortaras el cuello al individuo que esta violando a tu hija?
Hay muchas ocasiones, que por desgracia hay segundos para tomar una decision, y de ella depende estar vivo o muerto
Killing someone is a hard call I have problem killing my dogs when they are in pain. I have shot a man robing my tools in Detroit. I was loaded with rock salt and hit him in the balls. i could hear him scream for a long time. it would depend on the threat. if it was myself alone I am 75 and have lived a full profitable life. it could be hard. if it was a threat to my family I would find a way to live with it. if it were an extended family like my inlaws and outlaws I may hesitate. and would feel a level of guilt. in a survival situation a threat dispatched prevents further threat to my family. this my first responsibility and could and will defend. should the need arise I would introduce these who threaten to Satan personally.
Grampa
Howdy Grampa, I am inclined to think the same as you with regards to my own limits. There are definitely things I would do to protect my family that I wouldn’t if I was alone.
Having someone in your life that you have sworn to protect changes your prioritise significantly.
Thanks for dropping by!
You don’t want to kill anyone >>if you can avoid possibly it.<<
No matter what the circumstances, it will damage you psychologically. All violence does. Humans are hard wired that way.
You don't want to live the rest of your life remembering what you did. That's a lot of long nights.
I hope I never had to Yail, definitely a sobering thought.
I’ve been in a few situations involving self-defense, and while they were limited to just scaring off a nuisance or putting a bully in place and I’ve never experienced a drop of guilt over it, I think I might be able to do the deed if it was absolutely necessary with minimal emotional repercussions. However, my biggest reservation is our judicial system. I’ve been assaulted in the past and lost my job for defending myself against a perverted drug-addict coworker who in the past had waved a gun in my face. While the police said I was in the right and charges couldn’t be pressed against me, I wasn’t allowed to draw unemployment because “you should do what’s necessary to keep a job, including tolerating undesirable behavior”. If I was punished that harshly for not being the personal toy of some loser, what would the powers at be do to me if I killed one of those jerks, and be extension, what would they condone putting my family through by taking away what I provide for them?
Aye, the legislative consequences can throw your “game plan” into a right mess. This is particularly salient for me as a resident of the UK- self defense is our right but in practice, I don’t see the cops looking favourably on taking our future into our own hands. As sad as it is.
Nice read!
Reflexive training can desensitize you into actually killing someone. The question is, can you live with your actions leading to the taking of a life of another person?
Lets hope I never have to find out, Al.
Hi, Thomas, long time reader and follower of More Than Just Surviving. I think about this subject often because I carry a pocket knife on a daily basis. A few weeks ago here in Portland, OR, there was a stabbing incident that took the life of two men and critically injuring another. These three men defended the dignity of two young Muslim girls from the racial insults of another man. That man ended up stabbing them (strangers to each other and the girls) killing two of them.
I keep putting myself in those heroes’ shoes, asking if I would’ve had the guts to do what they did. What about if I had a knife or gun? Would I have used it to defend those girls as well as myself? Even though the perpetrator probably deserved it, would I have been able to take his life? The answer is “I don’t know”.
As men, we like to think that we can jump into any altercation and come out victorious, having women and children draping all over us, praising us, as we do our superhero pose with hands on our hips and chin in the air. But, in reality, most heroes end up dying tragically. Sometimes for total strangers, they don’t even know, like this case I’m mentioned. I think that’s why many people will choose to do nothing if it doesn’t concern their safety.
To take a life, we have a couple things going against us. First, the Law, we have to believe beyond reasonable doubt that our life and those that we are protecting are in imminent danger. If not, we can find our self in as much trouble as the perpetrator. Second, ourselves (our conscience), I don’t believe that average person has the capacity to take a life. Perhaps, hurting someone to fend them off or teach them a lesson will be enough, but not to kill. My CC instructor told a story in which he took a robber’s life, but he said it was out of pure reflex from years of training on the force. He did not remember drawing his gun nor pulling the trigger, he only remembers seeing the dead body in front of him and the gun in his hands. It all went down in the blink of an eye.
I guess we will never really know the capacity of our actions until we are threatened.
Thank you for your forum and keep up the great contents.
One hell of a comment Khan, I read about that story and I went through a similar process. I like to think I would have stepped in but as you say, we never truly know what we are made of until we are tested.
Lets hope that if such a test ever arrives at my feet, that I will rise to the occasion.
I’ll do my best to keep content to the standard you expect, readers like you is why I try so hard to publish consistently.
I thought this article was quite appropriate. We all need to be confronted with the realities of life. The truth is, killing itself isn’t hard at all – especially when you are sure the attack is deadly in nature. It’s the aftermath that bothers most people. I believe that’s because we have lost the values and mindset of our ancestors: they believed certain classes of people deserved to die. Today we’re told its not really the criminal’s fault. It’s how they were raised, their social condition, blaa blaa blaa. Every excuse is given to excuse the criminal while at the same time every force is brought to bear against the person who legally defended themselves with deadly force. Maybe we should read more Louis Le Moore books and regain a sense of moral virtue in confronting criminals. Framed by that, self-defense isn’t something to lose much sleep over. That sounds harsh, but it only shows how far we’ve strayed from our Founding.
My only issue with mob justice is that due process is often ignored. How to we define the red line in the stand?
So many cases were someone gets shot over a misunderstand, its a jarring position to be in. I remember a case in Canada where cops gunned down a woman who was on her driveway holding a knife (she obviously just stepped out of her kitchen).
Moral issues aside, I think the world is pretty complicated, we share so much more than we used to back in the more arcane days and thus the mental process we go through with our decisions have become far more convoluted.
Imagine someone in the dark ages stuck in a quagmire because he can’t decide what food he wants to eat! -Would never happen. We definitely used to be far more action driven but then again, back then, we never had the choices we know take for granted. So are offered so many paths to so many situations that its (in my opinion) become the norm to hesitate at everything.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts Tim, much appreciated.
What a crock of shyte comment. Sounds about the whitest most racist comment here! “they believed certain classes of people deserved to die” WTF? and then you followed it up with a “morality” statement?!
And Thomas you told him his thoughts were appreciated?!
I believe unequivocally in freedom of speech. I appreciate people who share their opinion. That does not mean I necessarily agree with them. Its important as a species to communicate our feelings otherwise it just creates fractures in our societies and we will lose our bonds of fraternity. Looking at history and how far we have come regarding our moral equivalence regarding violence is a point worth discussing in a civil fashion, we can discuss, disagree all without condoning.
I hope this makes sense and you can see my perspective. ;) If members of the Westboro Baptist church want to come here spewing vitriol, they are more than welcome to do and I will happily call them idiots. Belief is a right, acting on one’s belief to the detriment of another persons safety or liberty is not.
I don’t believe that we can accurately determine how we will handle the aftermath of having to shoot someone until it happens. The is probably quite a bit of external factors that will have an impact on our ability to deal with the incident. Was the shooting completely justified in our mind, are others questioning the justification of the shooting causing one to second guess himself or herself, did the person have a family, especially small children, etc.
As I have related to individuals when I previously taught concealed carry classes, that every situation is different. If your are in a situation where your know that if you do not pull the trigger, you or an innocent person will die or suffer serious physical harm. You need to react and you will deal with it better knowing there was really no choice. Pulling the trigger should ALWAYS be the last resort. The movies, TV and video games tend to desensitize us to killing.
I am inclined to agree, the rate of suicide amongst our vets is testament to the brutal nature of violence. We can’t underestimate it.
Thanks for all your thought provoking comments, they help offer a great perspective and if nothing else they stimulate conversion. We are all richer for them.
I think you can train and plan and talk and imagine, but until you are actually in a situation where you feel you “should” kill another person, I don’t think you’ll know for certain how you’ll act. I hope I’m never forced to find out.
T*hank you ,Mr. McManigal for your honest thought. Too many guys feel they have to prove their machismo by claiming to know exactly how, when, and how many they plan to ‘take out’ given a self defense action. I pray I will never have to find out
Exactly, when I went through an attempted home invasion, I froze. The reality is that life comes at you fast and how you react will vary based on personality, experience and your general feelings on any given day. I always advise against expecting the expected under duress.
Thanks for dropping by Kent.
I live in the United States, and the particular state I live in makes it legal to “stand-your-ground” in defense of home, self, or family against intruders. In other words, you can legally shoot to kill if someone invades your home and refuses to leave.
Two years ago I awoke to a crashing noise downstairs. Grabbing the headlamp and gun out of my nightstand, I went to investigate. As I came down the stairs I saw a person ransacking the dresser under our TV.
I yelled at them to leave, and the person turned towards me. I yelled again and they continued advancing so I fired two shots, center mass. I’d spent countless hours at the range with this pistol, and the distance was about 15 feet (4m), but neither shot seemed to have any effect. I continued shooting until the intruder was hit and fell to the ground.
According to the police report, I fired six rounds and though I had aimed at the center of the person’s torso, I hit him in the thigh.
I learned many things that night and in the weeks after, by the most relevant to this article was something one of the investigating officers told me; even trained cops and soldiers unconsciously miss their targets due to some instinctive refusal to shoot another person.
Very interesting mate, glad you are safe and your story serves as a great example for the inherent reticence we as humans possess to take life.
Food for thought.